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Hi Mike, I have not read your second part. (I was busy with this one.)

I hope that I have not offended your religious sensibilities. It seems that you are saying that Christianity built western civilization, with lots of positive influences. In the modern era, it might seem so. But then when you look into the past and when we look at culture, like the truly admirable statues and paintings of the Renaissance, we lose sight of many things.

In particular, the fact that all the cultural content of the Renaissance was created by the work of several dozen talented artists and humanists fascinated by antiquity, at a time when manslaughter was a daily occurrence for Western Europeans, and it took on massive proportions. But neither Raphael's Sistine Madonna nor Michelangelo's David will tell historians anything about the atrocities of the Borgia papal family or the violence perpetrated by the Sforza dukes. Therefore, for a person interested in what really happened, it is preferable not to confuse works of culture and architecture with the system of behavior of the ethnos that created that culture.

Christian behavior on the ground, was war. Even WWI and WWII. How about now? These are all Christians, or Abrahamic Religion if you include Israel.

So can we say, that what Jesus taught was good in theory but bad in practice?

Unless you want to be continually bamboozled, I believe you have to judge everything by actual results, and not by unfulfilled promises, and with a litany of excuses. (Like politics today.) But in some instances Christian practices seem to have made a difference. What are those instances when it worked?

One instance is where there was a major homogeneity. We constantly extol the glory of diversity, but that is because diversity is what we already have. The Japanese don't have diversity, and they don't think they need it.

Diversity can be good and it can work, if there is prosperity, but somewhat equally distributed. With the rise of the billionaires, that is less and less likely, and that result is racism. We are told that the "brown-skins" are taking our jobs, so we're poor. I am not talking to the privileged, but to the growing poor, who have a racist tendency.

Can Christianity counter racism? Not so far in 2,000 years. Perhaps prosperity coupled with Christianity could make a difference. But guess what, Christianity is what has always driven colonialism, exploitation, and inequity, because we have the only true God. Exactly the same now with what they call the "Rules Based World Order".

If there was prosperity, I believe every religion would find a smoother way of cooperation. No need for Christianity then, or among the many. So who is it that is sanctioning other nations to kill their prosperity? There are 88 pages of all the sanctions imposed on this US.gov website: https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/MASTER-Sanctions-chart-508-Updates-Aug-2023.pdf

Thanks

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WhyNotThink's avatar

Part 2

The original positive system - Christianity, which overlapped the Gnostic phantasmagoria, and a new push of the 6th-7th centuries, which created Islam as a worldview, and Islam stopped the existence of Iranian anti-systems – the Zindiks. In Byzantium, the anti-system developed in the 9th century in Asia Minor, on the border with the "Muslim world". From there it spread to the Balkans, where the Bulgarians and Slavs, who accepted the Greek education, created their own Bulgarian kingdom. Here the anti-system was called Bogomilism and disappeared only after the passionate push of the 13th century, it was displaced by the Ottomans. But the fate of the Manicheans of Provençe was much more complicated. They died only in the XIII century, but infected Western Europe with their worldview, where the disgusting social institution - the Inquisition - appeared.

In the 10th century Manichaeism spread to Languedoc and merged with similar teachings in Bulgaria. Manichean preachers in southern France and even in Italy so electrified the masses that at times even the pope was afraid to leave the fortified castle in order to avoid being insulted in the city streets by the excited crowd, among whom there were also knights, especially since the feudal lords affected by the propaganda refused to subdue them.

In the second half of the eleventh century the Manichean doctrine spread to Lombardy, where the vices of the higher clergy caused legitimate indignation among the laity. In 1062 the priest Ariald spoke out in Milan against the marriage of priests, but met with the resistance of Archbishop Guido and was killed. The struggle continued, with the archbishop and his successor supported by Emperor Henry IV, the secret Satanist, and supported by the reformers, Popes Alexander II and Gregory VII. In the twelfth century the Manicheans, called Patarenes in Italy, spread throughout all the cities as far as Rome, with the peasants being the least inclined to heresy and the nobles and priests, i.e. the most passionate part of the population of the time, being the most active heretics.

In Languedoc, which was under the shadowy patronage of the kings of Germany, the city of Albi became the center of Manicheanism, and because of this the French Manicheans became known as Albigensians, along with their Greek name of Cathars, which means "pure". By 1176 most of the nobility and clergy of Languedoc had become Cathars, while a smaller portion, and the peasants preferred to remain silent and not protest.

In fact, the Albigensian war was by no means akin to a popular revolt in 1358 France, nor was it a feudal skirmish between Toulouse and Paris, nor was it a national war between the Provençalians and the French. Unlike many patriarchal and plebeian anti-church movements, the Cathars were socially diverse, belonging to no single class, which contributed to the successful spread of the doctrine, not constrained by social and ethnic boundaries.

In the Albigensian Crusade, the Papal States and France vs. Cathar States (the anti-system) 1208- 1229 (I think often call the peasant wars, but peasants were not the driving principle, and it was not a class war), up to one million were killed.

England and France were at war for 100 years, 1337 - 1453, (2.3 to 3.5 million deaths). Can you imagine; your grandfather and your grandson fought in the same forever-war. That was your Christian culture's only stereo-type of behavior for a century. (Did they ever get out of that mind-set?)

Then the French Religions war 1562 - 1598. Catholics vs. Protestants (Huguenot), 3 million killed.

There may be a misconception that Catholics were better, kinder, more honest, nobler than Cathars (Albigensians). This view is just as wrong as the other way around. People remain themselves, no matter what ethical doctrines are preached to them. And why is the concept that one can buy absolution with money donated for a crusade, better than the call to fight against the “material world”? And if one doctrine is better than the other, for whom is it better?

The dates of this huge negative movement, (and its many branches), overlapped to the dates of Cluny and Cistercian that you mention. You would have to really look closely to see where they were intermixed and infected by each other.

___________

The Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic psychology began with further development of the colonies. All the criminals, the brigands, and the lawless were sent to the colonies, OR they went there to seek their fortune where the laws couldn't touch them. This brought a modicum of peace to society, plus riches poured in from the colonies. You said the same, also about the Crusades, “By redirecting intra-elite violence to an external party, the crusade movement likely played a role in Western European nation-building”. So did the colonies.

The Roman pope did declare a Crusade against Orthodox; and Poland, Germany and Lithuania carried it out. Poland, vs Sweden, Russia, 1655 - 1667, 3 million killed (This is the pope’s Catholics crusade against Orthodox).

“Eastern Rome”, Constantinople, lasted about 1,000 years more than Western Rome. So, the Orthodox was a much stronger foundation than the Latin Pope. (Popes were very corrupt in every sense of the word, selling indulgences to finance themselves and the crusades.

Like I say, I don’t know IF positive influences of the Church could be held separate from its negativity? You say young people pursued careers in religion and academics, there was commerce and industry? But not much, right? Weren’t 90% on the land? Some security guilds in London and communes in Italy, were they militias? You have to say, people like liked combat, otherwise how did they raise so many armies.

I don’t really see how peoples communes and guilds built commercial life. I think “Capital” built commerce and subjugated the commoner. Then the guilds were an answer to that subjugation. Neither do I see any limitation on nepotism that is still practiced to this day.

You have provided a very stimulating article, and I thank you for that.

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